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2009 Have Spark but not at Start

7K views 40 replies 3 participants last post by  cory52000 
#1 ·
Very annoying. Just trying to verify - My 09 350 raptor I got w a no spark issue. No problem, I thought - anything but. I know theres a thousand no spark questions but mine seems just a tad different.

I replaced the ignition coil, spark plug wire and boot as well as a new plug... and ordered the cheapest pickup coil I could find on Amazon. Maybe not the best idea, but funds are limited.

So I get everything on and still no spark. Pull the plug - press start and while the starter button is pressed - NO SPARK. As soon as the button is released, you get spark... but its not enough to get the motor to kick over.
I've swapped the pickup leads back and forth between the two pigtail ports to make sure i didn't have them backwards and the same symptoms persist.
I've read that the pickup coil ordered can be and usually is wrong...? I shouldve replaced the stator when I swapped the pickup out, as it wouldve eliminated that, but it looked fine. I've bypassed the starter button and still same. Everything I try - as long as that starter is turning - no spark. As soon as the current is cut to it - i get a spark but then the motor isnt turning enough to kick off.

Sorry to be redundant because redundancy is redundant if I'm repeating myself.

Is this a stator issue or a ground wire somewhere that I missed??

Thanks for any input
 
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#2 ·
sounds like you are on the right track with the stator. it does not usually work out too well to replace the pickup with out the stator they live in the same hot oil. did you check the stator with a meter. it is almost never the things you replaced on a warrior. it is normally a bad stator. I think Yamaha did not use the correct wire and the heat breaks down the field in the stator causing it to bleed and mess with the spark but that is just a wild ass guess on my part. I know it is tempting to buy the Chinese junk because it is so cheap but stick with ricks motorsport or rickystator. cal-trec sounds good but they are just a reseller of the Chinese stuff I think. do your ohms test. check your timing you may have jumped time or sheared a woodruff key. try grounding the green wire on your reverse shifter.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the response. As soon as I get a moment free I'll run back out and get an ohm reading on things and if money permits I'll buy a stator (was hoping to avoid that) and a new gasket - anyone know if you can reuse a new gasket if its only been on a few weeks? Sigh. I hate that I have to drain the fresh oil now too.
 
#4 ·
you can reuse the gasket just be careful with the little thin spot up front it tears easy. use some flexible engine builders gasket sealer, the kind that does not totally dry. the stuff I have is grey. you don't have to drain the oil. tip the quad to the clutch side with the wheels 14 to 16 inches in the air and let it sit for a few minutes before you take the cover off and you will be fine. make sure you brace it well because if it slips then you waste all of the new oil and cuss a lot.
 
#5 ·
I measured the resistance of the coil and stator. Here are my results. I read online to put meter into 2k Ohms and
Everything measured except the new pickup coil leads gave a result of .005kOhms

The two new lead wires from the pickup coil read .411-.413 kOhms

I have no idea if these are in spec. Pics included. Hopefully the links work

http://i.imgur.com/IyzCxeB.png

http://i.imgur.com/HSCAIXB.png

Anyone kmow if these are in spec? Thanks.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Inspect all of the wiring, check for shorts, check your on off switch, maybe something is occurring inside the switch when you press the start button that is prohibiting the RUN switch from making contact( broken parts?) Check any relays that prevent the machine from starting , neutral switches etc.
 
#8 ·
Yeah, now that you mentioned it - I've heard that the parking brake is not only pretty much USELESS but its also a major source of ignition headaches...?

Anyhow I was hoping the resistance in the wires might indicate something and be a big clue. I'll try to maybe test the OTHER end of the harness that leads to the relays and such to see if they have a short or something tomorrow.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I am guessing it is your pick up coil that cheap stuff is back out of the package pretty often and that number sounds off. I don't have specs for anything that new so I don't know on your numbers. to rule out your parking brake just unplug it. there are 2 sets of wires going to the handle bar one has 2 wires and bullet connectors that is you clutch switch unplug the other one. the parking brake only makes it run bad when it fails it will still start it just limits the max rpm because it thinks the brake is on. I was fighting a similar issue and called ricky stator he walked me through the test on the phone, told me what I needed and built me a stator with higher temp wires. he was awesome and very helpful. might save you some time
 
#10 ·
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Just installed this new stator and new pickup coil.
Same exact symptom. Have spark but ONLY when the start button is JUUUUUUUST pressed and JUUUUUSSSST released.

Does the REVERSE lever affect start/spark? Its a BEAR to get into "forward" (which illuminates the (N)eutral indicator. I feel like its not locking in- or that I may break it trying to lock it into N. Lifting the lever and putting it into (R)everse it almost leaps for reverse and Ive noticed that with the clutch lever fully pulled in, in reverse, there is slippage and slight movement... - so does the trans go from actual NEUTRAL to Reverse without havig to shift gears w the foot lever?

Also, have weak battery and trying to jump start and use cables directly from another vehicle on battery leads...

When the Key/Ignitiom cylinder is turned on, theres a really high pitched whine coming from a relay or the Im assuming the dual plug CDI box in the rear... Theres another front mounted cdi looking box w a single plug, but I'm assuming thats the voltage regulator...

Im REALLY REALLY trying to avoid tearing off the entire wiring harness and going thru every lead/ground - but I'm REALLY needing to get this thing repaired and up for sale before tax return ,oney dries up.

ANY suggestions or help would be appreciated!!! Nuetral safety switch? CDI? Seat or brake safety switch? Parking brake is unplugged by the rear caliper... The starter button doesnt seem to be defective or bad - but maybe I'm wrong...? It turns the motor over when pressed.
HEEELLLLPPPPP
 
#11 ·
the reverse lever can effect the spark. on the warriors it is a green wire on the lever itself it is common to have to ground that wire. just unhook it and ground it under on of the mounting bolts. to ease shifting dissemble the lever clean and grease all of the moving parts. it will help a lot but on their best day you have to feather the clutch a little to ease changing gears. yes the reverse gear is stand alone it does not matter weather the machine is in a forward gear on neutral when you throw the lever it shifts to reverse. using a big battery wont hurt anything short term but you could cook a starter if you crank too long. the only function of the solenoid is to actiate the starter when you hit the button and it sounds like that is working. neutral safety switch deactivates the solenoid and does not effect the spark. possibly cdi but there is not test for that the book actually says rule out every thing else and else and then replace the cdi. unplug the parking brake wires up by the bars. cant explain the whine. try unpluging the rectifier to see if that makes a diference
 
#12 ·
Im anout to ounch a hole thru the wall wit this thing.
On my second stator, i have three different pickup coils all with different ohms readings, but the highest resistance is 425ohms and from I can read its supposed to be 460-590ish.

Ive checked timing, ive checked valve clearances, I've checked continuity... I cant get this thing to fire to save my life.
I have a new cdi- i get spark (when the starter button is first pressed) with the new cdi box but not with the old. I have continuity from the cdi to the ignition coil primary...

I was getting backfire two days ago while being towed https://youtu.be/NFFpoZzGe5U
Heres the video. Timing was off here as previous owner had it set on the opposite stroke. Timing is dead on now, but at least I had some spark!!!
This intermittent piece of crap is about to be pushed off a cliff. I hate it.

All the info is so scattered and contradictory. Example- Ive read that pre 2002 pickup coils should have 120-220 ohms and the 2002+ should have 469-561ohms - but Ive read elsewhere that 300 ohms is good. I dunno anymore.

Anyone want to hit some target practice?
 
#13 ·
Ok. New info and new questions.

I haphazardly discovered that I get the same i termittent spark condition whethere the trigger harness is plugged in or not. That baffles me. Maybe the start solenoid triggers ignition automatically - I dont know. But Here's a video of what spark I AM getting-

https://youtu.be/dlUT-Sew_TM

The wiring diagram I have is bunk. It just shows the wires coming out ogmf a circle labeled "stator". It doesn't differentiate between pickup and charge etc. I know the white wires charge the battery. I get that. But the 4 on the square harness are confusing. Again - I could probably figure it out if the CDImodule diagram was labeled but its not - Its justa SQUARE in the wiring diagram. Nothing labels what each does.

So Ive been trouble shooting this thing for MONTHS now and replaced everything but the rectifier (and some parts twice) and now I find out the the spark i have been getting all this time when the start button is pressed - Doesnt even depend on the trigger coil being plugged in!!! WHAT THE HECK!?!?!?! Watch the video and see what I mean. This is beyond baffling. I'm thinking MAYBE i need to keep arranging the trigger/pickup coil wires on the square harness in different combinations to see what happens... but I dont want to damage anything.
 
#14 ·
i have never had to do the red white swap mine have all been fine but the way i understand what they did they left the harness alone and swapped the wires on the pickup but again i have not done it my self. try unplugging the rectifier and see what happens. just randomly swapping wires could be dangerous. make sure you have good clean metal under that primary coil. everything in that video would point me to a bad ground or possibly a bare wire/short
 
#15 ·
Yeah, Ive had the recrifier/regulator unplugged several times. Even tried to do a trick posted on the 660 raptor forums and undo the red wire that goes into the rectifier. Nothing. Always the same exact symptoms. Quick spark when button is pressed and nothing else.
I dont know how many more times I can go thru the wires before ripping my hair out. Everything has continuity. Ive tried every combination I can think of with bith cdi modulesand swapping out the pickup coils as well. No combination works.
The Ohm specs are questionable from what I've read. Some say ~200-300 and others say ~459-560ohms. My one pickup coil has 425, the ither 350 - both out of spec but close either way. The manuals Ive downloaded here are rather vague from what Ive seen
They dont differentiate model years.

I wish I knew what each wire and ground does. I can follow and trace wires, but there's no explaination as to whay they do. The cdi diagram being the biggest culprit.

Could the green plug solenoid have any effect? I cant for the life of me figure why I get spark EVEN WITH the trigger harness unplugged - when the stary button is first hit.

Ive bypassed the start button and jumped the starter solenoid terminals, so I know its not the start button switch.

Ive pulled all the grounds off that I know of... is there an exhaustive list of them?
$800 cash come get it. Order the $300 all inclusive ignition kit from rmstator.com and youll have one for $1100. I cant afford to sink anymor TIME into this pile. Its very vexing.
 
#16 ·
when you say green plug solenoid do you mean the one on the reverse lever? possibly. i have had 2 warriors that i have had to ground that green wire permanently but in both cases they would run fine and die when i put the machine in reverse. i have to admit i am stumped as well. i would say it is a short in the stator or trigger coil inside, the first stator i did in a warrior i did not get the wires routed correctly and the flywheel cut them but the fact that you had 2 different stators with the same problem kinda rules that out.
 
#17 ·
the newest diagram i have is for a 2004 but looking at the whole picture you obviously have a back feed of some kind. that entire ignition system relies on frame grounds to work which means a back feed can come from almost anywhere. i have 2 possibles 1 is the start switch is shorted out and creating a back feed. i know you said you had the same symptoms when you jumped the solenoid bur try unplugging the switch and jumping the solenoid and see if it changes. the other possibility is the frame is getting energized and exciting the primary coil. use your meter and put the neg lead on the battery and the positive lead on different point of the frame and hit the button. look for blips on the meter. my jeep had a back feed one time that would turn the radio on and off when i used the turn signal. it ended up being a back ground on the grill to the frame but i was a the point you are now ready to burn it. i am still thinking on it and will post more if anything pops to mind
 
#18 ·
You MAY be on to something.

I came home this morning to find a replacement stator and pickup coil in my mailbox (I emailed company and said theirs was ohming at 325ohms so they sent a free one out) and after ohming it out and seeing the pickup is FINALLY in spec (my 3rd stator and 4th pickup coil!!!) at 545-550ohms I grew excited and dropped everything I was doing and installed the new package within about 20 minutes. Im getting good/fast at this!

So I get it on and get it installed and with the spark plug grounded on the motor, I eagerly push the start button. Same exact symptoms. A quick spark upon pushing the button but then nothing.

I swap the pickup leads in the harness just to check polarity - same.

Now I know at least my stator is in ohm spec though!

I read your response about a ground issue and back charging or whatever so I unplugged the starter button harness connector and removed the light blue w black stripe pin and reconnect harness... Push start button to verify - nothing. I jump the solenoid - absolutely ZERO spark... and the relay in the green harness plug doesnt click at all.

So I've determined that the ONLY time I'm getting spark is when the relay clicks. Thats it. When i jump terminals, no click in the relay- no spark. It is the relay that is producing the spark and not the pickup coil (if ypu watched the video youll see the pickup wasnt even plugged in and I could get spark.

I think I called the relay a green harnessed solenoid yesterday... my bad. Its the relay that plugs into the green harness connector.

Wonder if I shouldgo back out and disconnect the BLACK Ground in the start buttom harness and see what happens. I dont know if ANYTHING will work then, but its worth a shot. You MAY be on the right track because at least now I have a variable.

Start button/kill switch harness http://imgur.com/V8ssqr2

http://imgur.com/gCCCe2c
 
#19 ·
Oh - I also wanted to ask - is it possible to install the stator on upside down or in the wrong clock position? It may seem ridiculous but the thought crossed my mind. It was August or September 2015 when I acquired this Raptor 350 and so I am a little hazy on what exactly it looked like on there (but pretty sure you cant mess it up anyway
 
#20 ·
you can install the stator clocked wrong but it is tough to route the wires they only fit well one way. do some internet stalking for pics it might help. that being said I am not sure it would change anything as long as the pickup coil and flywheel were mounted correctly and I think the pickup will only go in one way. its been a year or so since I went through a harness but those plugs don't look familiar to me I think they must be new when they changed to a raptor and I have not had my hands on one. did you try your meter on the frame when you hit the button? if I had to make a bet it would be that there is a bare wire in that harness that is making contact when hit the button and I would start with the 2 small wires that go to the starter solenoid. but that is just a guess. even though it does not feel like much ruling out the stator and pickup is progress. when you are chasing an electrical demon it is a matter of step by step positive rule outs and you have 2 now
 
#21 ·
Ok. Put the lead on the negative terminal. Meter set to resistance/continuity (200 scale)

Put the other lead on several parts of the frame and even the motor. I get continuity and resistance.

When I hit the start button I get blips like you said.

My father is an electrician but 75 years old... I am ignorant of electrical stuff.

YOU ARE RIGHT THOUGH, RIGHT?!?!?

What does this mean?? What do I do?? Please excuse my ignorance
 
#24 ·
After all this, and having THREE stators now, I made some observations about thw differences. Think they may have any effect? The stator with green is the newer one. I just installed ANOTHER one of these that came with a GOOD ohm'ing pickup coil... so I MIGHT try to reinstall the original factory stator with the NEW Pickup coil and see what that nets me.

Notice how the original stator and the Zoom Zoom wind in opposite directions. Thats why I asked above if they could be installed backwards or upside down. Clockwise/ccwise http://imgur.com/tScWSNp

Notice the pole size difference. (No idea the correct terminology though)
New on top old on bottom http://imgur.com/ZlbSiTC

Old on top new on bottom http://imgur.com/9NS2BKX
Notice how narrower and longer the original poles are as opposed to the square newer ones.

I KNOW i had a bad pickup coil originally because she wont ohm out to save my life - wonder if I can cobble these together and make something happen? But - the feedback into the frame had me concerned Corey as you said to check that and it happened just like you said.... was that normal? ID REALLY HATE to do this stator swap A G A I N!!! But may just hit it
 
#25 ·
Went back to original stator with new pickup coil that is in spec. Same symptom persists.

Hopefully Corey can respond soon and shed light on the backfeed scenario. I'm ASSUMING that the answer will be to break down all the tape on the wiring harnesses and go thru each individual wire.

This 4 wheeler has once again gotten me to waste another whole day working on it.
 
#26 ·
you are on the right track now, the blips are not normal. warriors and I am assuming your raptor only have electrical tape to create the harness. I have done 3 and all 3 had bare spots. if you are getting blips it is almost a sure thing that you have a bare wire contacting the frame. no matter what else you have nothing will work correctly until you rule that out. I know it sounds like a horrible job but it is not bad. it will take about 4 hours to do a really good job. some tips to make it easier. take a lot of pictures of the routing. work the harness in small sections making sure all of the intersections stay in the same place. physically feel and inspect each wire. if you find a bad spot the best way to fix it is to cut the wire, slip on some shrink wrap, re solder the connection and shrink wrap it. a good tape job will do as well just not quite as bullet proof. if you find a bare wire don't be tempted to fix it and stop looking. pay special attention on any possible pinch points like where the harness takes a sharp bend over the frame and in high heat areas like above the head. make sure when you put that harness in you have one more positive rule out and never have to look at that again. that article is a good on how a chassis ground system works. again when you are looking for an electrical demon step by step is the only way it may feel slow when compared to jumping around but in the long run it will save you time. the other good thing is when you get through this you will know exactly how your machine functions and learned some very valuable skills.
 
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